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Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2017-07-23 12:34 AM (#678354 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Trade return was not light. Andersson is a much better talent package. Not only did Stepan blow on draws. Not only was his skating slow. His defensive game sucked the past 2 years.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 7:28 AM (#678362 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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With all due respect, I think you have got to factor in cap space/relief and the signing of Shatt as well. If there was no cap Stepan would have been viewed differently. His value would have been different as well, 6.5 and a NTC for 4 years is a big pill to swallow. So I think it is missing a big piece of the trade to not factor in the cap relief we got by moving Stepan. There is zero doubt in my mind Gorton had that 100% on his mind when he made the deal. He knew he'd have flexibility to make a bigger signing if he moved Stepan. Be it Thornton or Marleau or Shatt, and we got one.

Brooks writes this today:

The Rangers currently hold approximately $5.795 million in cap space with a shadow roster featuring eight defensemen (excluding Pionk) and 13 forwards (including Fast, Lias Andersson and Boo Nieves) prior to Zibanejad’s signing.

So whether we could have barely slipped in Shatt's 6.65 with Stepan's 6.5 still on the books or not really is missing the point (Brooks paints a picture that we could not). We still have to resign Ziban, so no shot we could have Shatt here if Stepan was here still. Everyone knows that is the case.

I will look at the team bigger picture, and to me no doubt we are an improved team. In addition finding a solid C, we don't need some stud C we won't get anyway, is easier than finding a top 4 RD, which is what we got subbing Stepan out for Shatt.

Also with all due respect I don't think status quo presents a bleak outlook. Our D went from piss poor to a top 5-7 unit in the NHL. Yes we lost Stepan, who you could argue has been trending down some and best case has plateaued I think. He went crazy long stretches where he was invisible last season. Like 20 games or so with no goals, for a "# 1 C" that is crazy. And simply hasn't even tried to improve on face-offs given his continued horrific results. Plus he is slow as can be. With that said he is a loss. He is smart, played important minutes (with diminishing results), was a leader, and will be missed no doubt (on the ice and off the ice as a very good Ranger). But I am not going to make it bigger than it is. Of our top forwards Stepan was the one I feel "best" about dealing. I would rather keep Hayes with the hopes that he continues to improve. So we can makeup for the loss of Stepan.

We should have about 4 mill or so left after we resign Ziban (I am taking Holden out as I expect him to be dealt), so we can make a move. Or we can keep that cap space and let the season play out, then look to add that top 9 C/forward during the season, that wouldn't be the worst thing. And I'll also say with our D and Hank I do fully believe our top 9 is still solid. This is a good group:

Ziban, Hayes, Miller, Zucc, Nash, Buch, Vesey, Grabner, and Kreider is solid. Ideally we need another player here to move Grabner down to the 4th line, but if we started the season like this I could live. And maybe Andersson is really ready and improves the group even more. We'll see on that.

So I love what Gorton has done in 2 summers really. We are younger and more talented, much better and deeper on D, and only have Staal's contract left as a real bad contract. Big kudos to Mr. Gorton from me. Let's see how he finishes it off.

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concust
Posted 2017-07-23 8:02 AM (#678363 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Toews went 14 games without a goal last year so really not that uncommon. Bergeron had 2 in a 23 game stretch. Two way first line C are typically given a more defensive assignment unless you're an elite scoring center (Crosby)

Faceoffs.... you all know my position on this. Stepan was at 47% last year, which apparently sucks. To get to an "acceptable" 50%, that is +3 FOW over 100 attempts. He takes about 19 per game. He'd have to win 3 additional faceoffs over a 5 game stretch in order to hit 50% and be average instead of "sucking on faceoffs." 3 FOW over 5 games. That's the basis of the "sucking on faceoffs" argument.

Right now I think we are a slightly better team than we were in May. This is less due to Stepan/Shattenkirk and other offseason moves, but more stemming from the buyout of Girardi. We are much better on defense, but significantly worse down the middle, which I have levied a fair amount of criticism for already. So far Gorton gets a passing grade from me, I only have a couple of his moves that I am critical of. My feeling is that they won't/can't do anything else in the offseason, will play most of this season with this lineup.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 8:18 AM (#678364 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I am not going to debate Stepan's prowess on face-offs, there isn't much to say. He is not good there and has never improved. That's it really. Call it whatever you will.

As for his drought, no it doesn't define him, but he is what he is at this point. Good for 50's points and usually smart play. That's who he is. Value there for sure, but he isn't changing games. Shatt can score as many points, and do it from the backend. I will disagree with you regarding us only being slightly better, I think we are better period, and I will very much disagree with you regarding the Stepan/Shatt swap, which is a big plus for this team given our current makeup. Personally I don't think it is really debatable, but that's my opinion and respect others of course.

Now we all know we need to add another piece upfront, and I still 100% expect that will happen, be it this summer or during the season.

And lastly, sorry but Gorton gets an A from me. Look at how he transformed this stagnant aging team the past two summers. Girardi gone. An old and slowing D transformed. The Grabner signing. 7th pick added. DeAngelo added. Nice move adding Smith. Some other good young dmen added. I think he gets an A for what he has done in a very short time. Outside of the Staal trade, not sure he has really made any bad moves, and even that move wasn't awful where we gave up a ton.

I have full 100% faith in Gorton.




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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-23 9:21 AM (#678365 - in reply to #678354)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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itsmcilrathtime - 2017-07-22 11:34 PM

Trade return was not light. Andersson is a much better talent package. Not only did Stepan blow on draws. Not only was his skating slow. His defensive game sucked the past 2 years.



Stepans skating was minimal effort, which is why they got rid of him genious, but he was still their number one center, playing against all other teams best, all the while as one of the Rangers top +/- players. . Calling Andersson who you probably have never seen a much better talent package is typical of your sis boom ba rah rah Rangers prospects are the greatest, childish line of thinking. Or maybe you watch 2 minutes of HIGHLIGHTS and proudly proclaims knowledge of a player. Expecting Zibanejad and or Hayes to fill the role of Stepan is wishful thinking, personally I don't think either one has the game
Deangelo is a talent on his third team, and comes with a lot of potential and a lot of questions.
I have little doubt Stepan who needed a change is going to be one motivated hockey player, returning to his earlier Ranger form. Raanta has shown number 1 potential and is going to get his chance. Deangelo and Andersson got a lot of ground to make up to balance this trade out.

Edited by Rranger 2017-07-23 10:15 AM
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-07-23 9:28 AM (#678366 - in reply to #678230)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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lucifer316 - 2017-07-22 4:14 PM

I know people love to rag on Steps but the past 3 seasons he was 41st overall among all forwards in scoring. His .74 ppg over that time holds up pretty well to Bergeron's .73 ppg and Toews' .78 ppg two of the leagues premier 2-way centers. I feel like we got jobbed on this trade given the pick we ended up making. Yeah we got some cap space but I am not sure we have much to do with that space at this point. Maybe that changes who knows. But there were 30 number 1 centers in the league and Steps was 41st among all forwards in scoring. I would say that puts him pretty damn close to a number 1 center. Once you remove the wingers and add the 1st and 2nd year phenoms I would be he still ends up top 30 in production over that time. No one can argue he is a franchise center but the definition of 1st line center isn't franchise player.


LUCE!!! Why didn't you warn me....now I have to go and load up on popcorn!!!
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-23 9:33 AM (#678367 - in reply to #678362)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-23 6:28 AM

With all due respect, I think you have got to factor in cap space/relief and the signing of Shatt as well. If there was no cap Stepan would have been viewed differently. His value would have been different as well, 6.5 and a NTC for 4 years is a big pill to swallow. So I think it is missing a big piece of the trade to not factor in the cap relief we got by moving Stepan. There is zero doubt in my mind Gorton had that 100% on his mind when he made the deal. He knew he'd have flexibility to make a bigger signing if he moved Stepan. Be it Thornton or Marleau or Shatt, and we got one.

Brooks writes this today:

The Rangers currently hold approximately $5.795 million in cap space with a shadow roster featuring eight defensemen (excluding Pionk) and 13 forwards (including Fast, Lias Andersson and Boo Nieves) prior to Zibanejad’s signing.

So whether we could have barely slipped in Shatt's 6.65 with Stepan's 6.5 still on the books or not really is missing the point (Brooks paints a picture that we could not). We still have to resign Ziban, so no shot we could have Shatt here if Stepan was here still. Everyone knows that is the case.

I will look at the team bigger picture, and to me no doubt we are an improved team. In addition finding a solid C, we don't need some stud C we won't get anyway, is easier than finding a top 4 RD, which is what we got subbing Stepan out for Shatt.

Also with all due respect I don't think status quo presents a bleak outlook. Our D went from piss poor to a top 5-7 unit in the NHL. Yes we lost Stepan, who you could argue has been trending down some and best case has plateaued I think. He went crazy long stretches where he was invisible last season. Like 20 games or so with no goals, for a "# 1 C" that is crazy. And simply hasn't even tried to improve on face-offs given his continued horrific results. Plus he is slow as can be. With that said he is a loss. He is smart, played important minutes (with diminishing results), was a leader, and will be missed no doubt (on the ice and off the ice as a very good Ranger). But I am not going to make it bigger than it is. Of our top forwards Stepan was the one I feel "best" about dealing. I would rather keep Hayes with the hopes that he continues to improve. So we can makeup for the loss of Stepan.

We should have about 4 mill or so left after we resign Ziban (I am taking Holden out as I expect him to be dealt), so we can make a move. Or we can keep that cap space and let the season play out, then look to add that top 9 C/forward during the season, that wouldn't be the worst thing. And I'll also say with our D and Hank I do fully believe our top 9 is still solid. This is a good group:

Ziban, Hayes, Miller, Zucc, Nash, Buch, Vesey, Grabner, and Kreider is solid. Ideally we need another player here to move Grabner down to the 4th line, but if we started the season like this I could live. And maybe Andersson is really ready and improves the group even more. We'll see on that.

So I love what Gorton has done in 2 summers really. We are younger and more talented, much better and deeper on D, and only have Staal's contract left as a real bad contract. Big kudos to Mr. Gorton from me. Let's see how he finishes it off.




The Rangers have a gaping hole at center.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 9:44 AM (#678368 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I actually also think Stepan will play well with Zona. Motivated and playing with some younger wingers I am sure will give him a little jolt he has lacked recently. We'll see how Raanta performs, but do need to remember we had one-year of Raanta, that's it. So he was never a long term backup for us. This summer was the time to deal him I think.

To me I really liked the trade because you absolutely have to factor in the much needed cap space it opened up, and getting out from under what could have potentially become a bad deal with a NTC was big I believe. Plus it opened up the space to sign Shatt. And for that we got two young pieces with upside. Now I agree with you Rr, we don't know how Andersson and DeAngelo will turn out. But I am excited to find out, and dealing what we dealt to find out, combined with the ability to sign Shatt, was very much worth it to me and make this a very solid trade I believe.

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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 9:48 AM (#678369 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I wouldn't use the word gaping. They have a hole that needs to be filled...most likely. I say most likely because Miller, Deshar and Andersson could step up if given a chance. They may not, but they may. Also I expect Ziban to take a step forward next season as well. No givens here, but I feel optimistic. No doubt there is a hole though, cannot debate that. We'll see how it is filled.

Overall the team is simply better. The D is MUCH better, and we already had good depth upfront so we could withstand the loss of Stepan without being crushed. Plus I again fully expect to add a forward at some point. We'll see who it is and when it happens.



Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-07-23 9:50 AM
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 9:58 AM (#678370 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Numbers submitted for Ziban's arbitration hearing Tuesday:

The Rangers have submitted a request of $4.1 million to the arbitrator for Mika Zibanejad's hearing and Zibanejad has requested $5.35 million.

My guess is upper 4's/5 depending on deal length.



Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-07-23 9:58 AM
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-23 10:07 AM (#678371 - in reply to #678369)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-23 8:48 AM

I wouldn't use the word gaping. They have a hole that needs to be filled...most likely. I say most likely because Miller, Deshar and Andersson could step up if given a chance. They may not, but they may. Also I expect Ziban to take a step forward next season as well. No givens here, but I feel optimistic. No doubt there is a hole though, cannot debate that. We'll see how it is filled.

Overall the team is simply better. The D is MUCH better, and we already had good depth upfront so we could withstand the loss of Stepan without being crushed. Plus I again fully expect to add a forward at some point. We'll see who it is and when it happens.





Optimism is fatal to a lot of GM's in the sporting world. Luckily you can expect whatever with zero implications, but try to remember it's only your opinion, and doesn't mean your right. You and many on here obviously don't understand the importance of Stepans role, and trivialize it. Zibanejad and Hayes got a lot of work to do to fill it.

Raanta had two not one good years with the Rangers. Phoenix is obviously a lot more bullish on him that you.

Edited by Rranger 2017-07-23 10:28 AM
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 11:11 AM (#678372 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Absolutely they have work to do to fill it. And while hopeful (that is the word I would use) that the guys I mentioned can help to fill Stepan's role, as I wrote we need to add another forward. I agree 100% Rr. Could be now or could be during the season, but to be a cup type team we need another guy upfront.

And I am not downplaying Stepan's importance at all (not saying you were talking about me). He was very important and played a big role for us. I am simply saying we have some potential guys who can partially fill his shoes, and for this team with our makeup there is no doubt to me Shatt is the player I'd rather have. If I were a Nashville fan I rather have Stepan over Shatt. For us Shatt fills a bigger need no doubt about it IMO.

As for Raanta, I think you misunderstood. I am not saying he only had one good year here, I am saying he only had one-year left on his contract, and he 100% would be somewhere else after next season. So deal him now before he can walk for nothing next summer, or the return is less in the days leading up to the draft when you would only be trading his rights for a week or so.




Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-07-23 11:12 AM
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-23 11:17 AM (#678373 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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And on the Stepan deal, I really don't think it is fair to not add cap space into our return. The NHL is not just a capped league, it is a very restrictive capped league. Cap space is precious. There is simply no doubt that a big part of the return in Gorton's mind was clearing the full 6.5 mill of Stepan, and with a NTC about to start as well. That was part of his trade evaluation for sure. That is huge, and it simply is not fair to judge the trade without factoring that in. In this ridiculously restrictive capped league being able to get rid of a full 6.5 mill and take no salary back is gigantic. AND then with that space we were able to sign Shatt, which would not have happened without dealing Stepan.

So respectfully I don't think you can just say we got Andersson and DeAngelo for Stepan. That doesn't paint the full picture, and I promise you Gorton saw the cap space as a huge add for us, which he used wisely a week later.

And overall the team is better today than the day before the Stepan deal, so again it 100% is all tied together I think and part of Gorton's vision I believe.




Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-07-23 11:19 AM
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robstones
Posted 2017-07-23 11:23 AM (#678374 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Andersson could prove to be better than Stepan.... So if we look at Stepan for Andersson straight up, it could be a wash, or even a win for The Rangers if Andersson pans out to be a faster version of Chris Drury.

So that leaves us with Raanta for DeAngelo. Raanta we could have kept, and lost him to FA at the end of the year, I suppose.... but instead we got something in return.

A young offensive defenseman with tons of skill and upside.

But even if he turns out to be MDZ 2.0, it's a wash because we would have lost Raanta for nothing anyway

Add to it the cap space saved, and yeah The Rangers should be the winners in the trade.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2017-07-23 4:32 PM (#678376 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I thought Stepan was a lazy dog the last 2 years. Only time I really liked his ass was his game 7, OT winner vs. the Craps. Andersson and Chytil both had the same scouting reports. High skill level, high hockey IQ with a relentless motor. That's exactly what we need from our dumb, lazy, forwards. If the rest of our forwards played with the passion of Fast and Zucc, we would have at least one cup with Hank. Zborovskiy has that kind of scouting report with a notch below talent wise. We need more guys like that. Love McDonagh and how he competes. However, they can't afford to sign him. They can probably trade him for a crap load next off-season. Most certainly a top 7 pick a can't miss, NHL prospect. Sad to see him go but it's a business. This is also the last year for me to see Kreider finally put the work ethic together. If not, I trade him also for the right return. Next year the draft is supposed to be tremendous. Organization hasn't said it but I think they are starting to build towards a team with Shesterkin in net a few years down the line while still trying to give Hank a punchers chance at a cup.
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itsmcilrathtime
Posted 2017-07-23 4:42 PM (#678378 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I don't know why, but I think Hayes is really going to figure things out by 25 at center. Yeah, he had a tough playoffs. However, I keep going back to him winning over 50% on draws in the post season. If he can keep that off during the regular season, Rangers have something there. I also think Lindberg will suck on Vegas to start the year and the team will end up trading for him and bringing him back.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-07-23 6:27 PM (#678382 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Stepan needed to go...But Zib, Hayes, Desharnais, Lias down the middle is a mismatch for the other team almost every nite
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-23 7:05 PM (#678383 - in reply to #678374)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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robstones - 2017-07-23 10:23 AM

Andersson could prove to be better than Stepan.... So if we look at Stepan for Andersson straight up, it could be a wash, or even a win for The Rangers if Andersson pans out to be a faster version of Chris Drury.

So that leaves us with Raanta for DeAngelo. Raanta we could have kept, and lost him to FA at the end of the year, I suppose.... but instead we got something in return.

A young offensive defenseman with tons of skill and upside.

But even if he turns out to be MDZ 2.0, it's a wash because we would have lost Raanta for nothing anyway

Add to it the cap space saved, and yeah The Rangers should be the winners in the trade.





You wouldn't make a very good GM on either side of your two trade scenario. You say Andersson straight up for Stepan is a wash because he might be better than Stepan, when in 5 years.? You are a patient GM. But probably out of a job.
Your Arizona and you trade DeAngelo a kid loaded with promise and upside for Raanta a backup goalie with some good numbers, but never a starter. Very very risky for Chayka and a knock it out of the park for Gorton. Which is why this is ONE trade not two.
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-23 7:08 PM (#678384 - in reply to #678382)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Mikey Red - 2017-07-23 5:27 PM

Stepan needed to go...But Zib, Hayes, Desharnais, Lias down the middle is a mismatch for the other team almost every nite






Rivals are licking their chops.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-07-23 7:10 PM (#678385 - in reply to #678384)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Rranger - 2017-07-23 7:08 PM

Mikey Red - 2017-07-23 5:27 PM

Stepan needed to go...But Zib, Hayes, Desharnais, Lias down the middle is a mismatch for the other team almost every nite






Rivals are licking their chops.

Yep indeed!
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-24 4:40 AM (#678389 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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My thought is let's see what the team looks like in October before we judge. And I'll also add, even if we start the season with the forwards we have now, we'll add someone during the season. We'll have 4 mill in cap space +/- after we resign Ziban (not including Holden whom I expect to be dealt). The regular season really doesn't mean much in the NHL, and the team we have right now is good enough to be fine in the regular season and get us in the tournament (which is all that matters). Then we can add for the post-season.

I actually would trade one more season of Raanta for DeAngelo, but you are right Rr. You need to look at the full trade (salary cap space to sign Shatt included) to judge it. Agreed.

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concust
Posted 2017-07-24 6:19 AM (#678390 - in reply to #678364)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-23 9:18 AM

And lastly, sorry but Gorton gets an A from me. Look at how he transformed this stagnant aging team the past two summers. Girardi gone. An old and slowing D transformed. The Grabner signing. 7th pick added. DeAngelo added. Nice move adding Smith. Some other good young dmen added. I think he gets an A for what he has done in a very short time. Outside of the Staal trade, not sure he has really made any bad moves, and even that move wasn't awful where we gave up a ton.

I have full 100% faith in Gorton.




For player personnel there are some moves better than others but overall there have not been any horrible moves. Sather is famous for saying "better a lion for a day than a mouse for a lifetime" or something like that, justifying his swing-for-the-fences mentality. So far, I am happy that Gorton has not displayed that level of short-sightedness, his moves have generally been moves that make the Rangers a little bit better each time, versus trying to do it all in one fell swoop.

Having said that, extending AV was 100% a mistake and by far his worst move. Why extend him that long, and this early? Now not only he does he no sweat this year thinking about an extension, he doesn't have to worry about it for 3 more seasons.

Gorton has put himself in a position where the coach will likely not be able to utilize the team that the GM has assembled.

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concust
Posted 2017-07-24 6:23 AM (#678391 - in reply to #678389)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-24 5:40 AM

My thought is let's see what the team looks like in October before we judge. And I'll also add, even if we start the season with the forwards we have now, we'll add someone during the season. We'll have 4 mill in cap space +/- after we resign Ziban (not including Holden whom I expect to be dealt). The regular season really doesn't mean much in the NHL, and the team we have right now is good enough to be fine in the regular season and get us in the tournament (which is all that matters). Then we can add for the post-season.




I am taking this approach also, with the caveat that adding a center mid-year seems like an ass-backward way of doing it. Also I don't think the "platoon of #2/3 centers" is going to get us anywhere in the playoffs. Strength down the middle is generally the hallmark of a Cup winning team.
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robstones
Posted 2017-07-24 6:57 AM (#678393 - in reply to #678383)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Rranger - 2017-07-23 9:05 PM

robstones - 2017-07-23 10:23 AM

Andersson could prove to be better than Stepan.... So if we look at Stepan for Andersson straight up, it could be a wash, or even a win for The Rangers if Andersson pans out to be a faster version of Chris Drury.

So that leaves us with Raanta for DeAngelo. Raanta we could have kept, and lost him to FA at the end of the year, I suppose.... but instead we got something in return.

A young offensive defenseman with tons of skill and upside.

But even if he turns out to be MDZ 2.0, it's a wash because we would have lost Raanta for nothing anyway

Add to it the cap space saved, and yeah The Rangers should be the winners in the trade.





You wouldn't make a very good GM on either side of your two trade scenario. You say Andersson straight up for Stepan is a wash because he might be better than Stepan, when in 5 years.? You are a patient GM. But probably out of a job.
Your Arizona and you trade DeAngelo a kid loaded with promise and upside for Raanta a backup goalie with some good numbers, but never a starter. Very very risky for Chayka and a knock it out of the park for Gorton. Which is why this is ONE trade not two.



You're so smart....

I know it's ONE trade.... but I thought of a different perspective on it.

Stepan and Andersson are both centers, so I chose to compare them both.... Andersson COULD be a better player that Stepan. When? I don't know.... I'm not sure 5 years is the answer.... probably not this year.... but who knows?

My point was if/when he develops into a faster Chris Drury people are going to look at this trade as a Rangers win.

Gorton admitted that it took Raanta to get the 7th overall pick..... It obviously wasn't Step for Lias straight up. Both sides agreed Stepan wouldn't be enough to land Andersson.

Raanta is a guy we would otherwise lose for nothing, tho. And since he became part of the package, DeAngelo was added as a sweatener.....

What if he pans out too?

Andersson for Stepan + Raanta could eventually prove to be a good deal on it's own.... but if DeAngelo pans out to be anything at all, Rangers win the deal by a landslide in my opinion.

As for me being a horrible GM.... I supoose that's why I'm not one... Never claimed to be. But what makes you the judge?
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-24 8:40 AM (#678394 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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The extension for AV means nothing to me. We extended Torts...and then fired him. If AV falters in Gorton's eyes he will be fired. The extension is meaningless to me. There is no salary cap for coaches, so who cares. We struggle and AV gets canned for Ruff extension or not.

As for the couple of # 2/3 C's approach getting us no where, again I disagree. We have made an SCF, made multiple ECF's and very easily could have been in the ECF again this past season if AV didn't F it up. So I think that approach can absolutely work IF you have depth of good talent upfront (which we do), and have a solid D (which we do again) and goalie (which we do).

On top of that, unless we bottom out we are not getting that stud C, so it is what it is really. We have won a lot of playoff hockey games and rounds without a stud C, so it can be done I believe.

And if your point is it can get us to the SCF or multiple ECF's but cannot get us over the final hump, not sure I really buy that. We can advance 2 or 3 rounds, but not 4? We played the Kings tooth and nail losing multiple OT games. That team couldn't win a cup? Sorry but respectfully disagree and don't buy it.



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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-07-24 8:46 AM (#678396 - in reply to #678394)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-24 10:40 AM
We played the Kings tooth and nail losing multiple OT games. That team couldn't win a cup?


WRONG!!!!

Why is it so hard to accept and admit that the Kings were the better team and no one was going to beat them?

Edited by Mjolnir 2017-07-24 8:47 AM
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-24 9:21 AM (#678397 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Admit what? Of course the Kings were the better team. No way to debate that one. BUT we did play them tooth and nail. And we did lose multiple OT games. And obviously when you make the SCF you can win the cup (double so when you lose multiple OT games).

But yeah of course the Kings were the better team, and won the series and deserved to. Did I miss where I said that wasn't the case? Everything I listed is factual bro.





Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-07-24 9:22 AM
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robstones
Posted 2017-07-24 9:38 AM (#678398 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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That Kings series still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Kings were the better team, but there was a lot of puck luck and Girardi turnovers involved that was ultimately the difference.

Rangers were a close second, for sure
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-24 9:44 AM (#678399 - in reply to #678393)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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robstones - 2017-07-24 5:57 AM

Rranger - 2017-07-23 9:05 PM

robstones - 2017-07-23 10:23 AM

Andersson could prove to be better than Stepan.... So if we look at Stepan for Andersson straight up, it could be a wash, or even a win for The Rangers if Andersson pans out to be a faster version of Chris Drury.

So that leaves us with Raanta for DeAngelo. Raanta we could have kept, and lost him to FA at the end of the year, I suppose.... but instead we got something in return.

A young offensive defenseman with tons of skill and upside.

But even if he turns out to be MDZ 2.0, it's a wash because we would have lost Raanta for nothing anyway

Add to it the cap space saved, and yeah The Rangers should be the winners in the trade.





You wouldn't make a very good GM on either side of your two trade scenario. You say Andersson straight up for Stepan is a wash because he might be better than Stepan, when in 5 years.? You are a patient GM. But probably out of a job.
Your Arizona and you trade DeAngelo a kid loaded with promise and upside for Raanta a backup goalie with some good numbers, but never a starter. Very very risky for Chayka and a knock it out of the park for Gorton. Which is why this is ONE trade not two.



You're so smart....

I know it's ONE trade.... but I thought of a different perspective on it.

Stepan and Andersson are both centers, so I chose to compare them both.... Andersson COULD be a better player that Stepan. When? I don't know.... I'm not sure 5 years is the answer.... probably not this year.... but who knows?

My point was if/when he develops into a faster Chris Drury people are going to look at this trade as a Rangers win.

Gorton admitted that it took Raanta to get the 7th overall pick..... It obviously wasn't Step for Lias straight up. Both sides agreed Stepan wouldn't be enough to land Andersson.

Raanta is a guy we would otherwise lose for nothing, tho. And since he became part of the package, DeAngelo was added as a sweatener.....

What if he pans out too?

Andersson for Stepan + Raanta could eventually prove to be a good deal on it's own.... but if DeAngelo pans out to be anything at all, Rangers win the deal by a landslide in my opinion.

As for me being a horrible GM.... I supoose that's why I'm not one... Never claimed to be. But what makes you the judge?





There is a lot of make believe on here. Reality is the entire deal. I don't think and most would agree neither trade is made on its own. As you say Gorton himself admitted it. As you well know this one won't be judged til when and if DeAngelo and Andersson reach the NHL. Could be this season should be by next season. And then a couple of seasons to truly know what they have. And I hear a lot of Andersson and little about DeAngelo who has the capability of being the best player in this trade, so I don't think the Rangers got rooked, but would have liked to seen at least another mid level pick for the Rangers seeing as they are giving up the now for 2 maybe's. Their production will dictate the level of success. Teams draft records are littered with can't miss prospects that became never were's, see Yakupov. And what happens if Stepan goes in to Arizona and scores 70 points and Raanta is lights out.? Certainly raises the bar on the expectations on the Rangers end doesn't it..

Edited by Rranger 2017-07-24 9:59 AM
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-07-24 9:44 AM (#678400 - in reply to #678397)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-24 11:21 AM

Admit what? Of course the Kings were the better team. No way to debate that one. BUT we did play them tooth and nail. And we did lose multiple OT games. And obviously when you make the SCF you can win the cup (double so when you lose multiple OT games).

But yeah of course the Kings were the better team, and won the series and deserved to. Did I miss where I said that wasn't the case? Everything I listed is factual bro.



Rangers did not play them tooth and nail. They threw everything at them in the first period. Kings adjusted and took over every single game.

Rangers got to finals on emotional fumes. Mama St. Louis doesn't die, Rangers lose to Pens.
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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-24 10:18 AM (#678401 - in reply to #678389)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-07-24 3:40 AM

My thought is let's see what the team looks like in October before we judge. And I'll also add, even if we start the season with the forwards we have now, we'll add someone during the season. We'll have 4 mill in cap space +/- after we resign Ziban (not including Holden whom I expect to be dealt). The regular season really doesn't mean much in the NHL, and the team we have right now is good enough to be fine in the regular season and get us in the tournament (which is all that matters). Then we can add for the post-season.

I actually would trade one more season of Raanta for DeAngelo, but you are right Rr. You need to look at the full trade (salary cap space to sign Shatt included) to judge it. Agreed.




i dont think there is a guy on the planet that wouldn't trade Raanta straight up for DeAngelo every day and twice on Sunday especially with Allaires track record with finding quality backups. You are another who undersells DeAngelo's potential, hye could easily be the best player in the trade. . But the issue with the light on the trade on the Rangers end is they gave up the now for the future, and thats always a risk.
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-07-24 10:34 AM (#678404 - in reply to #678401)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall



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Rranger - 2017-07-24 12:18 PM

. But the issue with the light on the trade on the Rangers end is they gave up the now for the future, and thats always a risk.


Did they really have much of a choice? They were not going to win with "the now" so their best bet was "the future". The Cup "window" has pretty much closed. Gorton would be a fool to think otherwise. So far he's shown he's not one.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-24 10:40 AM (#678406 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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When you lose multiple OT games you absolutely played them tooth and nail. Clearly the lesser team, but the games were tooth and nail for sure. We'll agree to disagree on that one.

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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-07-24 10:47 AM (#678407 - in reply to #676879)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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I have no clue what DeAngelo or Andersson will be, but today I really like the trade (and that's with the question mark of what will Andersson and DeAngelo be).

Respectfully, what you are not putting enough weight on is the salary cap space Rr. Gorton makes that trade in a restrictive capped league because cap space is precious. Look how he turned that cap space into Shatt. That is huge. I really don't think anyone is being fair if they don't factor in the cap space as a huge add for us in this deal, I can promise you Gorton factored that into his evaluation.

As for Stepan, I'll say right now he goes for 60 points with Zona. I think he'll get a little boost with a new team in a new environment. We'll see.

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Rranger
Posted 2017-07-24 11:05 AM (#678409 - in reply to #678404)
Subject: Re: Stepan and Raanta to Yotes for DeAngelo and 7th overall


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Mjolnir - 2017-07-24 9:34 AM

Rranger - 2017-07-24 12:18 PM

. But the issue with the light on the trade on the Rangers end is they gave up the now for the future, and thats always a risk.


Did they really have much of a choice? They were not going to win with "the now" so their best bet was "the future". The Cup "window" has pretty much closed. Gorton would be a fool to think otherwise. So far he's shown he's not one.



Their is always a choice, Were it not for a boneheaded coach against Ottawa, they could have beat them. Gorton could have found a way to keep Stepan and sign Shattenkirk if he would have wanted to.
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