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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-06 3:16 PM (#678815 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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We have bigger needs than another dman. If I were to trade Day it would be for a C/forward before it would be for a dman, no doubt in my opinion.


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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-06 3:22 PM (#678816 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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We have produced some real good players year after year. We also need to realize we are doing that while never being bad enough to get top picks.

The Rangers are a good team. We have been a good team for the past 6 years. We have won a lot of playoff series. We appear to have a good team again next season.

We have not won a cup, but man we have had a lot of really good times as fans over the past handful of seasons. 95% of the league would like to be us during that run. And I for one expect us to be a legit threat next season also. Yes we need another C/forward, but we'll add what we need a some point, I don't doubt that. So I am excited to see our new D play together. I am excited to see our kids hopefully move forward. I remain positive as we move forward into camp and then the season.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 3:41 PM (#678817 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Our D is not perfect...3rd pair is full of questions ...Smitty is ok nothing great
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 3:56 PM (#678818 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Also if we could get Mackinnon...then yes...Day is on the table
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 4:06 PM (#678819 - in reply to #678812)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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itsmcilrathtime - 2017-08-06 3:00 PM

Remember though. All our prospects suck. The fact the Rangers develop 1 to 3 good, young rookies every year means nothing. Why let facts get in the way. Big issue is our dumb fans actually believe farm system rankings and magazines who hate NY. Skjei wasn't even in the top 70 prospects by THN. He was one of the best rookies in the league last year.

Can we be MySpace friends?
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-06 5:02 PM (#678820 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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I'll disagree with you on the D Red. Of course it isn't perfect, no unit is perfect, but it is darn good and as importantly it is deep. The 3rd pair is solid with the 5 or so choices we have to fill that pair. We should be looking for a C/forward, not Trouba, if we deal Day. I would think that is Gorton's focus given the 9 or 10 deep we go on D.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 5:51 PM (#678821 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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3rd pair is far from solid...
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-06 6:12 PM (#678822 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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When you have Staal/Holden/DeAngelo/Pionk/Bereglazov/Graves/Day/Kampfer all in potential mix for 3rd pair minutes, I'll take my chances we'll have a solid 3rd pair. Not sure what you'd expect a solid 3rd pair to look like, but I think we have it. We'll agree to disagree on this one.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 6:46 PM (#678823 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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NHL tonight has top 10 goalies show on....They have Cam Talbot ahead of Henrik
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-06 7:25 PM (#678824 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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I always laugh at lists like that. So reactionary based on what have you done lately good or bad. Guess they need something to talk about in August.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 7:40 PM (#678825 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Yeah probably lol
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Mcphee
Posted 2017-08-06 7:45 PM (#678826 - in reply to #678824)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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What's so funny about it.Hank was not a top ten goalie last year.His team defense may have been bad,but I bet he gave up 20 more softies last year than ever before.As good as he was against Montreal(best player for NYR)he was absolutely horrible against Ottawa.At least 3 of the losses to Ottawa he gets as much of the blame as anyone on the team.Going into this season I don't think not having him in the top ten is unfair at all.Maybe he uses these articles to piss him off and he comes back better this year,only time will tell.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-06 7:49 PM (#678827 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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So absolutely horrible vs Ottawa....I am still trying to figure out how we lost a series that were winning 7/8th of each game...except for G6 when that game was a funeral anyway...Henrik cannot shut the door...its just that obvious...it always has been
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Mjolnir
Posted 2017-08-07 2:21 AM (#678828 - in reply to #678827)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Mikey Red - 2017-08-06 9:49 PM

So absolutely horrible vs Ottawa....I am still trying to figure out how we lost a series that were winning 7/8th of each game...except for G6 when that game was a funeral anyway...Henrik cannot shut the door...its just that obvious...it always has been


The other big problem with this team over the past few decades (besides the "pitiful play" is that they lack a "killer instinct".
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-07 4:46 AM (#678830 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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No doubt Hank had a down year last year. Don't think anyone could argue that. And no doubt he played very poorly against Ottawa as well (his play and AV's coaching cost us a series we had zero business losing). But for next season I absolutely take him over Talbot. And with a much improved D I expect an improved Hank. I think he is sitting on a very good year (assuming health). Not a stud top 3 goalie anymore, but a very good season where we see quasi vintage Hank.

We'll see...


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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-07 7:13 AM (#678831 - in reply to #678830)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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We shall see Shatt....He is 35 now with alot of miles on him.....I think his best days are behind him
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-07 8:20 AM (#678832 - in reply to #678828)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Mjolnir - 2017-08-07 2:21 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-08-06 9:49 PM

So absolutely horrible vs Ottawa....I am still trying to figure out how we lost a series that were winning 7/8th of each game...except for G6 when that game was a funeral anyway...Henrik cannot shut the door...its just that obvious...it always has been


The other big problem with this team over the past few decades (besides the "pitiful play" is that they lack a "killer instinct".

Totally....we are always playing on the defensive yep
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-07 10:02 AM (#678833 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Yes, that is a pretty safe bet that at 35 his best days are behind him, and I agree as I wrote. I don't think he will be a top 3 stud anymore. I do think he will be a good solid goalie who can take a team far though. Think that 2nd level down of NHL goalies after the true top group of studs. That's where he will be I believe. Upper level of that next group down I think.

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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 11:31 AM (#678834 - in reply to #678777)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Rranger - 2017-08-05 3:05 PM

robstones - 2017-08-05 12:28 PM

Preferably Canadian juniors vs playing for Frolunda? That's loco



Players come out of junior hockey every year and a lot of them play as well and better in the NHL than usually older players coming from Europe. Or Frolunda lol.!
It could be argued European players have a bigger adjustment coming over here with a huge jump in number of games played being being one adjustment, food, lifestyle, travel ect. Ect. It's not near the adjustment for junior players, they have been through the 80 game schedules plus playoffs. Andersson' s offensive skills would improve better in junior because he would get more opportunity, that plus becoming accustomed to more games is a win win for him.
He's just a number in Frolunda, in junior hockey he's expected to be a top point producer, and a go to guy in all circumstances. Just because your playing against men, doesn't mean it's best for development. I could rattle off the thousands of junior hockey grads that were not shortcut in development because they played junior hockey instead of a men's league in Europe.


With all due respect to your opinion, there have been multiple studies done over the last 20 years for league equivalencies in hockey, and not a single credible source would ever say that canadian juniors is a superior league to SHL. It's as objective of a fact as it is the NHL is better than the Swedish league.

Here's what's going to happen, I'm going to link to a bunch of well-researched and documented studies, showing the SHL is 60-70% of the difficulty of the NHL, where canadian juniors hovers around 30%. Then you're going to reply and call names and reiterate points which have been disproven, while offering no evidence to support your own supposition. Ready? Go.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php
This one's an older study, using the Russian elite league and Swedish Elite league, the precursors of the KHL and SHL.

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/thoughts/updatedtranslationfactors
This is newer and better done, imo. It's from 2015 and includes translation factors that show relative league strength. It's by Rob Vollman, one of hockey's preeminent statisticians. NHL=1.0, SHL=0.60, OHL=0.32

https://twitter.com/robvollmannhl/status/866477120360402944
Volman updated the translation factors for the most recent season. SHL dropped 0.02 pts, as did the OHL.

To sum, given two leagues that are close in competitiveness, then sure you choose the one that will be a better developmental league for the player. However in this case if Andersson has the choice between SHL and Canadian juniors, Major junior is so far below his compete level that it would serve virtually no benefit to him from a hockey perspective, given that he's already acclimated to the culture and language. This argument of SHL vs Canadian Juniors isn't even debatable.

If we were to expand on the discussion and ask, is it better for him to play SHL or AHL, then it becomes a much closer. The SHL is a better league, however the AHL is (significantly) closer geographically, plays more games, has NYR coaching staff accessible, and is much closer to the NHL work style than any other league. If this were the case I would give the nod to the AHL even though it is objectively an inferior league.





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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 11:44 AM (#678835 - in reply to #678824)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-08-06 8:25 PM

I always laugh at lists like that. So reactionary based on what have you done lately good or bad. Guess they need something to talk about in August.


I don't even disagree with Hank being around 8, based on last season's play, however many of the other rankings seem arbitrary.

Carey Price, Montreal Canadiens
Braden Holtby, Washington Capitals
Sergei Bobrovsky, Columbus Blue Jackets
Matt Murray, Pittsburgh Penguins
Devan Dubnyk, Minnesota Wild
Jonathan Quick, Los Angeles Kings
Cam Talbot, Edmonton Oilers
Henrik Lundqvist, New York Rangers
Martin Jones, San Jose Sharks
Pekka Rinne, Nashville Predators

Price at 1? Didn't have a great season or great numbers. Sure he's near the top, I just don't understand their ranking criteria. Holtby at 2, had solid regular season numbers but exposed in the playoffs. Your vezina winner clocks in at #3. Matt Murray's 2 shutouts in games 5 and 6 to hoist the cup help mask the fact that he gave up 9 or 10 goals in the two previous games and let nashville tie the series. Dubnyk, fine, Quick at #6? He played 17 games last year and no playoff games. How the fudge does that slot him in at 6? I stopped reading the list after that.


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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-08-07 12:30 PM (#678836 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Concust totally...Carey Price is NHL Nets favorite everything...Holtby at 2 who also has never won anything...The Bob? at 3? c'mon...Jphnny Quick played 15 games last year how is he on the list? This whole list is a joke
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Av-merican
Posted 2017-08-07 1:04 PM (#678837 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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They ranked Brodeur and Hasek above Roy in the All-Time goalies list so I'm not surprised those rankings look a bit off.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-07 1:21 PM (#678838 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Well said on everything you posted concust. I also think the best place for Andersson is the AHL due to location and Rangers coaching staff. And it is a solid league. I see zero reason he would play in some Canadian junior league. That makes very little sense to me.

As for Hank, I never actually saw the rankings they put out, but 8 isn't crazy. I would say the 5-8 window is where he'd be. I may say 5 or 6, but again that means 8 isn't crazy.

I think 6 is where I would put Hank ahead of Talbot and Quick. I may even put him ahead of Dubnyk. I also think Holtby is WAY overrated and proves that in the playoffs every season. No way I'd have him # 2...no shot.

So I agree with your take on all these items.




Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-08-07 1:24 PM
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Rranger
Posted 2017-08-07 2:42 PM (#678839 - in reply to #678834)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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concust - 2017-08-07 10:31 AM

Rranger - 2017-08-05 3:05 PM

robstones - 2017-08-05 12:28 PM

Preferably Canadian juniors vs playing for Frolunda? That's loco



Players come out of junior hockey every year and a lot of them play as well and better in the NHL than usually older players coming from Europe. Or Frolunda lol.!
It could be argued European players have a bigger adjustment coming over here with a huge jump in number of games played being being one adjustment, food, lifestyle, travel ect. Ect. It's not near the adjustment for junior players, they have been through the 80 game schedules plus playoffs. Andersson' s offensive skills would improve better in junior because he would get more opportunity, that plus becoming accustomed to more games is a win win for him.
He's just a number in Frolunda, in junior hockey he's expected to be a top point producer, and a go to guy in all circumstances. Just because your playing against men, doesn't mean it's best for development. I could rattle off the thousands of junior hockey grads that were not shortcut in development because they played junior hockey instead of a men's league in Europe.


With all due respect to your opinion, there have been multiple studies done over the last 20 years for league equivalencies in hockey, and not a single credible source would ever say that canadian juniors is a superior league to SHL. It's as objective of a fact as it is the NHL is better than the Swedish league.

Here's what's going to happen, I'm going to link to a bunch of well-researched and documented studies, showing the SHL is 60-70% of the difficulty of the NHL, where canadian juniors hovers around 30%. Then you're going to reply and call names and reiterate points which have been disproven, while offering no evidence to support your own supposition. Ready? Go.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php
This one's an older study, using the Russian elite league and Swedish Elite league, the precursors of the KHL and SHL.

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/thoughts/updatedtranslationfactors
This is newer and better done, imo. It's from 2015 and includes translation factors that show relative league strength. It's by Rob Vollman, one of hockey's preeminent statisticians. NHL=1.0, SHL=0.60, OHL=0.32

https://twitter.com/robvollmannhl/status/866477120360402944
Volman updated the translation factors for the most recent season. SHL dropped 0.02 pts, as did the OHL.

To sum, given two leagues that are close in competitiveness, then sure you choose the one that will be a better developmental league for the player. However in this case if Andersson has the choice between SHL and Canadian juniors, Major junior is so far below his compete level that it would serve virtually no benefit to him from a hockey perspective, given that he's already acclimated to the culture and language. This argument of SHL vs Canadian Juniors isn't even debatable.

If we were to expand on the discussion and ask, is it better for him to play SHL or AHL, then it becomes a much closer. The SHL is a better league, however the AHL is (significantly) closer geographically, plays more games, has NYR coaching staff accessible, and is much closer to the NHL work style than any other league. If this were the case I would give the nod to the AHL even though it is objectively an inferior league.











And where did I say Juniors is better calibre of hockey than the SEL?? Nowhere. I did say Andersson would have more benefit playing in the Juniors working on his offensive game, adjusting to North America ice size, living ect. ect., its pretty evident in everything I said. He needs to score more to round out his game, thats my opinion. You wasted a lot of time refuting a point that was never made.
I will say 2 of your 3 articles are written by one person, you will excuse me if I'm skeptical about somebody, no one has ever heard of, and the third article has no name attached to it. When you come up with consensus opinions from the professional hockey world you may have a point, even though I'm not arguing your point.
Its all pretty much irrelevant anyhow because unless he gets hurt or has a terrible camp he's in New York to start the season.
Ready, Go.
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sureshore
Posted 2017-08-07 3:40 PM (#678840 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Don't know why 2 pages of discussion on where/what league Andersson plays this season. He'll be with the Rangers come game 1 - I'd be shocked if he's not.
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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 5:57 PM (#678841 - in reply to #678838)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-08-07 2:21 PM

Well said on everything you posted concust. I also think the best place for Andersson is the AHL due to location and Rangers coaching staff. And it is a solid league. I see zero reason he would play in some Canadian junior league. That makes very little sense to me.

As for Hank, I never actually saw the rankings they put out, but 8 isn't crazy. I would say the 5-8 window is where he'd be. I may say 5 or 6, but again that means 8 isn't crazy.

I think 6 is where I would put Hank ahead of Talbot and Quick. I may even put him ahead of Dubnyk. I also think Holtby is WAY overrated and proves that in the playoffs every season. No way I'd have him # 2...no shot.

So I agree with your take on all these items.




I don't have a problem with Hank at 8, especially in an off year, but many of the other rankings are questionable. Quick at 6 with all of 17 games last year (reg+playoff) is insane. It's not like he came back and went 17-0 with a .980 svpct and a 1.03 GAA and the Kings barely missed the playoffs. Price is a great goalie but everyone bends over backwards to crown him the next great goaltender, and the numbers just don't support it. He's top 5, sure, but every list has him as this great goaltender (that has never been to a SCF) Ditto Holtby, great regular season, never gotten out of the second round. I guess it's fine to ding Hank for not having Cup(s) but these other guys falter in the playoffs and yet that never seems to be the narrative for them.

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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 6:01 PM (#678842 - in reply to #678839)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Rranger - 2017-08-07 3:42 PM

concust - 2017-08-07 10:31 AM

Rranger - 2017-08-05 3:05 PM

robstones - 2017-08-05 12:28 PM

Preferably Canadian juniors vs playing for Frolunda? That's loco



Players come out of junior hockey every year and a lot of them play as well and better in the NHL than usually older players coming from Europe. Or Frolunda lol.!
It could be argued European players have a bigger adjustment coming over here with a huge jump in number of games played being being one adjustment, food, lifestyle, travel ect. Ect. It's not near the adjustment for junior players, they have been through the 80 game schedules plus playoffs. Andersson' s offensive skills would improve better in junior because he would get more opportunity, that plus becoming accustomed to more games is a win win for him.
He's just a number in Frolunda, in junior hockey he's expected to be a top point producer, and a go to guy in all circumstances. Just because your playing against men, doesn't mean it's best for development. I could rattle off the thousands of junior hockey grads that were not shortcut in development because they played junior hockey instead of a men's league in Europe.


With all due respect to your opinion, there have been multiple studies done over the last 20 years for league equivalencies in hockey, and not a single credible source would ever say that canadian juniors is a superior league to SHL. It's as objective of a fact as it is the NHL is better than the Swedish league.

Here's what's going to happen, I'm going to link to a bunch of well-researched and documented studies, showing the SHL is 60-70% of the difficulty of the NHL, where canadian juniors hovers around 30%. Then you're going to reply and call names and reiterate points which have been disproven, while offering no evidence to support your own supposition. Ready? Go.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php
This one's an older study, using the Russian elite league and Swedish Elite league, the precursors of the KHL and SHL.

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/thoughts/updatedtranslationfactors
This is newer and better done, imo. It's from 2015 and includes translation factors that show relative league strength. It's by Rob Vollman, one of hockey's preeminent statisticians. NHL=1.0, SHL=0.60, OHL=0.32

https://twitter.com/robvollmannhl/status/866477120360402944
Volman updated the translation factors for the most recent season. SHL dropped 0.02 pts, as did the OHL.

To sum, given two leagues that are close in competitiveness, then sure you choose the one that will be a better developmental league for the player. However in this case if Andersson has the choice between SHL and Canadian juniors, Major junior is so far below his compete level that it would serve virtually no benefit to him from a hockey perspective, given that he's already acclimated to the culture and language. This argument of SHL vs Canadian Juniors isn't even debatable.

If we were to expand on the discussion and ask, is it better for him to play SHL or AHL, then it becomes a much closer. The SHL is a better league, however the AHL is (significantly) closer geographically, plays more games, has NYR coaching staff accessible, and is much closer to the NHL work style than any other league. If this were the case I would give the nod to the AHL even though it is objectively an inferior league.











And where did I say Juniors is better calibre of hockey than the SEL?? Nowhere. I did say Andersson would have more benefit playing in the Juniors working on his offensive game, adjusting to North America ice size, living ect. ect., its pretty evident in everything I said. He needs to score more to round out his game, thats my opinion. You wasted a lot of time refuting a point that was never made.
I will say 2 of your 3 articles are written by one person, you will excuse me if I'm skeptical about somebody, no one has ever heard of, and the third article has no name attached to it. When you come up with consensus opinions from the professional hockey world you may have a point, even though I'm not arguing your point.
Its all pretty much irrelevant anyhow because unless he gets hurt or has a terrible camp he's in New York to start the season.
Ready, Go.


By that rationale he should play in the SPHL or something. 60 games, smaller rink, working on his offensive game. Adjusting to north america in Louisiana or something. He could get plenty of opportunity to be an offensive leader in that league!

But that's not a realistic option because it's a garbage league and the level of talent is completely beneath him. Same with Canadian Juniors. It should not even be a consideration. In fact go and find a single instance of a player going from the SEL or Swedish Elite to Canadian Juniors, and then having an NHL career. It's absurd to even entertain the thought.
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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 6:11 PM (#678843 - in reply to #678840)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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sureshore - 2017-08-07 4:40 PM

Don't know why 2 pages of discussion on where/what league Andersson plays this season. He'll be with the Rangers come game 1 - I'd be shocked if he's not.


Considering his biggest competition right now is Nieves, I agree with this.

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concust
Posted 2017-08-07 6:22 PM (#678844 - in reply to #678839)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Rranger - 2017-08-07 3:42 PM

I will say 2 of your 3 articles are written by one person, you will excuse me if I'm skeptical about somebody, no one has ever heard of, and the third article has no name attached to it. When you come up with consensus opinions from the professional hockey world you may have a point, even though I'm not arguing your point.


Rob Vollman is one of the preeminent hockey statisticians and puts out Hockey Abstract every year, which uses a statistical base to study and analyze hockey. He's basically a math nerd and hockey fan and does great work. Believe he currently works for ESPN. Gabriel Desjardins consults with multiple NHL teams. I'd hardly say "nobody's ever heard of them" rather more accurately, "you've never heard of them."


If two sources isn't enough here's a few more, each uses different methods but all arrive at the same conclusions.

http://hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/League_Equivalencies.pdf

https://www.puckworlds.com/2012/7/31/3205754/league-equivalencies-an...

https://www.coppernblue.com/2014/7/10/5878177/regarding-nhl-equivale...

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Rranger
Posted 2017-08-07 6:54 PM (#678845 - in reply to #678842)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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concust - 2017-08-07 5:01 PM

Rranger - 2017-08-07 3:42 PM

concust - 2017-08-07 10:31 AM

Rranger - 2017-08-05 3:05 PM

robstones - 2017-08-05 12:28 PM

Preferably Canadian juniors vs playing for Frolunda? That's loco



Players come out of junior hockey every year and a lot of them play as well and better in the NHL than usually older players coming from Europe. Or Frolunda lol.!
It could be argued European players have a bigger adjustment coming over here with a huge jump in number of games played being being one adjustment, food, lifestyle, travel ect. Ect. It's not near the adjustment for junior players, they have been through the 80 game schedules plus playoffs. Andersson' s offensive skills would improve better in junior because he would get more opportunity, that plus becoming accustomed to more games is a win win for him.
He's just a number in Frolunda, in junior hockey he's expected to be a top point producer, and a go to guy in all circumstances. Just because your playing against men, doesn't mean it's best for development. I could rattle off the thousands of junior hockey grads that were not shortcut in development because they played junior hockey instead of a men's league in Europe.


With all due respect to your opinion, there have been multiple studies done over the last 20 years for league equivalencies in hockey, and not a single credible source would ever say that canadian juniors is a superior league to SHL. It's as objective of a fact as it is the NHL is better than the Swedish league.

Here's what's going to happen, I'm going to link to a bunch of well-researched and documented studies, showing the SHL is 60-70% of the difficulty of the NHL, where canadian juniors hovers around 30%. Then you're going to reply and call names and reiterate points which have been disproven, while offering no evidence to support your own supposition. Ready? Go.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php
This one's an older study, using the Russian elite league and Swedish Elite league, the precursors of the KHL and SHL.

http://www.hockeyabstract.com/thoughts/updatedtranslationfactors
This is newer and better done, imo. It's from 2015 and includes translation factors that show relative league strength. It's by Rob Vollman, one of hockey's preeminent statisticians. NHL=1.0, SHL=0.60, OHL=0.32

https://twitter.com/robvollmannhl/status/866477120360402944
Volman updated the translation factors for the most recent season. SHL dropped 0.02 pts, as did the OHL.

To sum, given two leagues that are close in competitiveness, then sure you choose the one that will be a better developmental league for the player. However in this case if Andersson has the choice between SHL and Canadian juniors, Major junior is so far below his compete level that it would serve virtually no benefit to him from a hockey perspective, given that he's already acclimated to the culture and language. This argument of SHL vs Canadian Juniors isn't even debatable.

If we were to expand on the discussion and ask, is it better for him to play SHL or AHL, then it becomes a much closer. The SHL is a better league, however the AHL is (significantly) closer geographically, plays more games, has NYR coaching staff accessible, and is much closer to the NHL work style than any other league. If this were the case I would give the nod to the AHL even though it is objectively an inferior league.











And where did I say Juniors is better calibre of hockey than the SEL?? Nowhere. I did say Andersson would have more benefit playing in the Juniors working on his offensive game, adjusting to North America ice size, living ect. ect., its pretty evident in everything I said. He needs to score more to round out his game, thats my opinion. You wasted a lot of time refuting a point that was never made.
I will say 2 of your 3 articles are written by one person, you will excuse me if I'm skeptical about somebody, no one has ever heard of, and the third article has no name attached to it. When you come up with consensus opinions from the professional hockey world you may have a point, even though I'm not arguing your point.
Its all pretty much irrelevant anyhow because unless he gets hurt or has a terrible camp he's in New York to start the season.
Ready, Go.


By that rationale he should play in the SPHL or something. 60 games, smaller rink, working on his offensive game. Adjusting to north america in Louisiana or something. He could get plenty of opportunity to be an offensive leader in that league!

But that's not a realistic option because it's a garbage league and the level of talent is completely beneath him. Same with Canadian Juniors. It should not even be a consideration. In fact go and find a single instance of a player going from the SEL or Swedish Elite to Canadian Juniors, and then having an NHL career. It's absurd to even entertain the thought.




So because he's scored 5 goals in the SEL he's to good for junior hockey and would learn nothing there. I guess Alexander Nylander and Gabriel Landeskog thought different. Both were slam dunks to play in Sweden but chose North America and junior hockey. Worked out rather well for them. And sensationalizing your post ranting about the SPHL just shows your ignorance of Major Junior Hockey.
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Shattenkirk NYR
Posted 2017-08-07 6:59 PM (#678846 - in reply to #678841)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Posts: 207
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concust - 2017-08-07 7:57 PM

Shattenkirk NYR - 2017-08-07 2:21 PM

Well said on everything you posted concust. I also think the best place for Andersson is the AHL due to location and Rangers coaching staff. And it is a solid league. I see zero reason he would play in some Canadian junior league. That makes very little sense to me.

As for Hank, I never actually saw the rankings they put out, but 8 isn't crazy. I would say the 5-8 window is where he'd be. I may say 5 or 6, but again that means 8 isn't crazy.

I think 6 is where I would put Hank ahead of Talbot and Quick. I may even put him ahead of Dubnyk. I also think Holtby is WAY overrated and proves that in the playoffs every season. No way I'd have him # 2...no shot.

So I agree with your take on all these items.



I don't have a problem with Hank at 8, especially in an off year, but many of the other rankings are questionable. Quick at 6 with all of 17 games last year (reg+playoff) is insane. It's not like he came back and went 17-0 with a .980 svpct and a 1.03 GAA and the Kings barely missed the playoffs. Price is a great goalie but everyone bends over backwards to crown him the next great goaltender, and the numbers just don't support it. He's top 5, sure, but every list has him as this great goaltender (that has never been to a SCF) Ditto Holtby, great regular season, never gotten out of the second round. I guess it's fine to ding Hank for not having Cup(s) but these other guys falter in the playoffs and yet that never seems to be the narrative for them.

Agreed, which is all the more reason why I'd have him at 5 or 6 instead of 8, but again to say he should be 6 instead of 8 means 8 isn't crazy. He also outplayed Price in the playoffs last season. If we call Hank (been to 3 ECF's and 1 SCF) a choker, what is Holtby?

So I would have Hank at 6, right there for 5, but cannot flip out that he is 8. Even though no way today I'd put Talbot ahead of Hank. For one season I would take Hank over Talbot for sure, but nothing crazy to see here.

BTW...I will say right now, Caps will NOT be in the top 3 in the Met. They are getting too much love for what they lost. The top 3 in the Met, barring injury, will be us, CBJ and the Pens.



Edited by Shattenkirk NYR 2017-08-07 7:02 PM
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Vua
Posted 2017-08-07 7:00 PM (#678847 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Quick isn't a top ten goalie in this league even if he had played a full season last year. He may have more talent than any goalie in the league but underachieves almost every year. He had 1 great season, a couple of bad ones, and everything else is average to slightly above average. He also manages to be average while facing the least shots of any starting goalie in the league almost every season.

And Hasek was better than Roy.
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Rranger
Posted 2017-08-07 7:02 PM (#678848 - in reply to #678844)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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concust - 2017-08-07 5:22 PM

Rranger - 2017-08-07 3:42 PM

I will say 2 of your 3 articles are written by one person, you will excuse me if I'm skeptical about somebody, no one has ever heard of, and the third article has no name attached to it. When you come up with consensus opinions from the professional hockey world you may have a point, even though I'm not arguing your point.


Rob Vollman is one of the preeminent hockey statisticians and puts out Hockey Abstract every year, which uses a statistical base to study and analyze hockey. He's basically a math nerd and hockey fan and does great work. Believe he currently works for ESPN. Gabriel Desjardins consults with multiple NHL teams. I'd hardly say "nobody's ever heard of them" rather more accurately, "you've never heard of them."


If two sources isn't enough here's a few more, each uses different methods but all arrive at the same conclusions.

http://hockeyanalytics.com/Research_files/League_Equivalencies.pdf

https://www.puckworlds.com/2012/7/31/3205754/league-equivalencies-an...

https://www.coppernblue.com/2014/7/10/5878177/regarding-nhl-equivale...







So in other words he compiles data and assumes because Erik Christensen scores about the same in the NHL and the SEL they are equal leagues. Is that how it works. Through a bunch of statistical data in a computer and come up with who's best? Because that is a load. What a fun little exercise, with a wonderful inconsequential result, and with what impact to anyone in the hockey world.
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robstones
Posted 2017-08-07 7:03 PM (#678849 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed



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Hasek ws unreal
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LeetchyMrRanger
Posted 2017-08-07 7:17 PM (#678850 - in reply to #677965)
Subject: Re: Andersson signed


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Posts: 1092
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Location: NJ
Hasek was great, but no Roy, no one is from this generation of goalies post 1980. He won 2 cups all on his own, no goalie has done that, if ever. Hasek didn't do it, Hull made sure of it. He won 2 cups all on his own & 1 as a rookie on a mediocre team. I have never seen a goalie win a cup all on his own, & he did it 2 X. If not for some rookie goalie named Roy, Rangers keep rolling in '86. To me it is Roy, Hasek, Marty, then Hank. You have a game 7 & your choice of a goalie, how do you not go with Roy?

Edited by LeetchyMrRanger 2017-08-07 7:19 PM
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