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Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-10 7:55 PM (#682948 - in reply to #682924)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Andy Bathgate - 2017-10-10 6:37 PM

Rranger - 2017-10-10 9:35 PM

Wtf is that idiot pulling the goalie so soon for. Rangers were all over them before, they get a hop with the goalie out and game over. Fire AV.



I saw that coming!!!






Way to early.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-10 7:55 PM (#682949 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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I love how the players know what the problem is but don't do anything about it in the game
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-10 7:56 PM (#682950 - in reply to #682928)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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robstones - 2017-10-10 6:37 PM

Rranger - 2017-10-10 9:35 PM

Wtf is that idiot pulling the goalie so soon for. Rangers were all over them before, they get a hop with the goalie out and game over. Fire AV.


Win the faceoff, and he's a hero





You don’t have to pull the goalie to win the face off. He could and should have waited another 40 seconds, the Rangers had some pressure going.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-10 7:58 PM (#682951 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Yeah pull with 2:00 to go is a bit much
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-10 8:01 PM (#682952 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Very Vancouver Canucks like near the end of AV’s days there.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-10 8:03 PM (#682953 - in reply to #682952)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Rranger - 2017-10-10 8:01 PM

Very Vancouver Canucks like near the end of AV’s days there.

Yeah he thought he could just get by with his mobster 3 piece suits
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-10 8:06 PM (#682954 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Our Boys are 1 point away from the cellar in the East
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-10 8:09 PM (#682955 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Zib "Mr. October"
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-10 8:53 PM (#682956 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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AV has created his own mess now.If he breaks up Staal and McDonagh his best pair he’s a fool. Staal has been very good and when you look closely is the only guy that’s a good fit for McDonagh and his minutes. . Shattenkirk and Skjei is not a great tandem Skjei needs a stay at home partner so he can run a bit. I don’t know who double mint is going to play on the third pair. Smitty getting big money and he’s got some steps to get back to the second pair, and he won’t get there if Staal is with McDonagh, and he shouldn’t. Creating a overpaid third pair guy and paired with DeAngelo another wreck waiting to happen. Holden? Kampfer? DeAngelo’s skill is very evident as are his warts, but he’s a kid who needs to play 25-30 games to see if he figures it out. Which would leave two of DeAngelo, Skjei, Shattenkirk on the second or third pair. Lol. good luck double mint, you pegged Staal as a third pair guy and you just got the he’s your top pair guy slap in the chops. Ah the best laid plans often go amiss.
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Andy Bathgate
Posted 2017-10-10 9:17 PM (#682958 - in reply to #682951)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 9:58 PM

Yeah pull with 2:00 to go is a bit much


So easy to second guess when you pull a goalie, he played poker and lost, 78 games to go... win some lose some... why does everything AV does become a soap opera on here. I dislike the guy, but almost feel like I have to protect him half the time.

At the end of the day his whole system, whatever that may be is flawed.... and he doesn't seem to get the best out of his players... when he pulls the goalie or who and where he benches players is the least of the problems.... Miller - Hayes - Kreider and a number of other players are lost in space... why? But the Zuc and Zib and a few others seem to be okay.... why?





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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-10 9:35 PM (#682959 - in reply to #682958)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Andy Bathgate - 2017-10-10 8:17 PM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 9:58 PM

Yeah pull with 2:00 to go is a bit much


So easy to second guess when you pull a goalie, he played poker and lost, 78 games to go... win some lose some... why does everything AV does become a soap opera on here. I dislike the guy, but almost feel like I have to protect him half the time.

At the end of the day his whole system, whatever that may be is flawed.... and he doesn't seem to get the best out of his players... when he pulls the goalie or who and where he benches players is the least of the problems.... Miller - Hayes - Kreider and a number of other players are lost in space... why? But the Zuc and Zib and a few others seem to be okay.... why?








AV lets the room run itself. I think when he got here most players were fed up with Tortorella and double mints easy going ways were welcome and coupled with predecessor Tortorella’s fundamental’s foundation they made it to the cup finals. Since then it’s been a deterioration of the fundamental basics, chasing coaches pie in the sky go go go Hockey that just doesn’t work in the playoffs. Might get you through a round or two but never past a team that plays with will and a solid defensive structure.
I see a lot of players right now weak on the will to win and the extra effort required. I think it’s a by product of coach allowing certain players more leash than others. I think he’s lost the room as they say or at least a good chunk of it. To many guys spinning their tires. It happens and the only thing that fixes it is a change.
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naf regnar
Posted 2017-10-11 5:48 AM (#682963 - in reply to #682932)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Andy Bathgate - 2017-10-10 7:40 PM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 9:36 PM

AV is in full blown panic mode now


I doubt it.. Game came down to an awful give away.. the Rangers competed against one of the leagues best... a loss, but they showed some life... I say we win 11 or the next 15.





They played about 15 mins. out of 60. Typical effort @ home going way back.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 6:52 AM (#682965 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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What do we do about Kreider?
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 8:18 AM (#682970 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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And how does Smitty have a bad game and he gets benched...but Holden constantly makes mistakes out there...always gets to play....and Kampfer is not better than Smitty....Fire AV
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-11 8:31 AM (#682973 - in reply to #682965)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 5:52 AM

What do we do about Kreider?




The first thing is find him a center he has some chemistry with. I don't see it with Zibanejad. He's playing the grinder to the net, screen and create some havoc, with Zibanejad and Buch doing most of the puck carrying, and as a line taking no advantage of Kreider's skill set. I don't want to see a Kreider, Miller, or Hayes traded to try to prop up Vigneault. If he can't get through to them, who's to say he will get through to the new guy. He's had plenty of time to try to get Kreider and others
to the next level.
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 8:33 AM (#682974 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Yeah it just seems he is always just in the wrong place when the puck is near the net...he has his back turned etc... We need to unlock the potential
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concust
Posted 2017-10-11 8:47 AM (#682975 - in reply to #682970)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 9:18 AM

And how does Smitty have a bad game and he gets benched...but Holden constantly makes mistakes out there...always gets to play....and Kampfer is not better than Smitty....Fire AV


On one hand, I like the message sent that even if you're a veteran, if you play like horse barf you will bet benched. On the other hand I am still frustrated with the selective enforcement of this policy. Especially true of forwards - some guys have much shorter leashes than others for no logical reason.

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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 8:51 AM (#682976 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Absolutely Concust...AV has different rules for different players....I dont get hid love for Holden tho
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sureshore
Posted 2017-10-11 10:57 AM (#682988 - in reply to #682828)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 8:45 PM

robstones - 2017-10-10 6:43 PM

Staal has been good

Skjei Shattenkirk makes sense

Smith and DeAngelo will be back.

Can't trade Holden if we show he isn't a top 6 guy.

Staal's value is rising, too.

TD needs to play RW in practice


enough of this 'converting a d-man to forward". Rarely works - DeAngelo's unique skillset is what makes him a wildcard at defense. As a forward he'd be just another smallish winger and would probably be just closer to Hartford that he is right now.

Only a handful of d-men can make that move - Burns and Bufyglien in today's game and even most in previous times were much bigger physically.

This ain't high-school or club hockey where you see that happen all the time.
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sureshore
Posted 2017-10-11 11:01 AM (#682989 - in reply to #682862)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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robstones - 2017-10-10 9:04 PM

Hayes
Staal Holden

Were the 3 chosen to start the 5 on 3


and this is why AV needs to go. Did he forget who's on his bench?
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sureshore
Posted 2017-10-11 11:02 AM (#682990 - in reply to #682864)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Andy Bathgate - 2017-10-10 9:06 PM

Grabner... lost his magic.




my bold prediction to my son. Grabner does not hit double digits in goals this season
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 11:39 AM (#682992 - in reply to #682988)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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sureshore - 2017-10-11 10:57 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 8:45 PM

robstones - 2017-10-10 6:43 PM

Staal has been good

Skjei Shattenkirk makes sense

Smith and DeAngelo will be back.

Can't trade Holden if we show he isn't a top 6 guy.

Staal's value is rising, too.

TD needs to play RW in practice



enough of this 'converting a d-man to forward". Rarely works - DeAngelo's unique skillset is what makes him a wildcard at defense. As a forward he'd be just another smallish winger and would probably be just closer to Hartford that he is right now.

Only a handful of d-men can make that move - Burns and Bufyglien in today's game and even most in previous times were much bigger physically.

This ain't high-school or club hockey where you see that happen all the time.

Smallish wingers are more effective than smallish defensemen...Id have no problem trying him out there...He has tremendous offensive instincts
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-11 11:50 AM (#682993 - in reply to #682988)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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sureshore - 2017-10-11 9:57 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 8:45 PM

robstones - 2017-10-10 6:43 PM

Staal has been good

Skjei Shattenkirk makes sense

Smith and DeAngelo will be back.

Can't trade Holden if we show he isn't a top 6 guy.

Staal's value is rising, too.

TD needs to play RW in practice


enough of this 'converting a d-man to forward". Rarely works - DeAngelo's unique skillset is what makes him a wildcard at defense. As a forward he'd be just another smallish winger and would probably be just closer to Hartford that he is right now.

Only a handful of d-men can make that move - Burns and Bufyglien in today's game and even most in previous times were much bigger physically.

This ain't high-school or club hockey where you see that happen all the time.





I agree with trying to change him, it’s dumb. He’s a unique talent and needs some backing and direction. First thing is finding him a dependable partner who can back up his offensive forays. The Rangers have jimmied themselves into a corner with McD, Shattenkirk, Skjei and DeAngelo always looking to jump up ice. Rarely does two offensive defensemen work together. Coupled with Smith who really has only been real good against Montreal in last years playoffs followed by a thud against Ottawa. He’s a warrior love his grit but looking like the third pair guy, that he came as advertised. The d is a mess of a poor mix of personnel and a significant change in personnel is needed. Gorton has it to do.
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robstones
Posted 2017-10-11 1:23 PM (#682995 - in reply to #682989)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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sureshore - 2017-10-11 1:01 PM

robstones - 2017-10-10 9:04 PM

Hayes
Staal Holden

Were the 3 chosen to start the 5 on 3


and this is why AV needs to go. Did he forget who's on his bench?


Maybe, but they killed it.

McD was in the box, and Skjei could have been tired
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robstones
Posted 2017-10-11 1:25 PM (#682996 - in reply to #682973)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Rranger - 2017-10-11 10:31 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 5:52 AM

What do we do about Kreider?




The first thing is find him a center he has some chemistry with. I don't see it with Zibanejad. He's playing the grinder to the net, screen and create some havoc, with Zibanejad and Buch doing most of the puck carrying, and as a line taking no advantage of Kreider's skill set. I don't want to see a Kreider, Miller, or Hayes traded to try to prop up Vigneault. If he can't get through to them, who's to say he will get through to the new guy. He's had plenty of time to try to get Kreider and others
to the next level.


How many goals would Zibanejad have, if not for Kreider in front?

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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 1:42 PM (#682998 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Las Vegas is better than us right now
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-10-11 1:53 PM (#683000 - in reply to #682998)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 1:42 PM

Las Vegas is better than us right now


Almost everyone is
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 1:54 PM (#683001 - in reply to #683000)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Rangerjunkie - 2017-10-11 1:53 PM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 1:42 PM

Las Vegas is better than us right now


Almost everyone is

lol yep ...we need a leader
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Rranger
Posted 2017-10-11 2:28 PM (#683002 - in reply to #682996)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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robstones - 2017-10-11 12:25 PM

Rranger - 2017-10-11 10:31 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-11 5:52 AM

What do we do about Kreider?




The first thing is find him a center he has some chemistry with. I don't see it with Zibanejad. He's playing the grinder to the net, screen and create some havoc, with Zibanejad and Buch doing most of the puck carrying, and as a line taking no advantage of Kreider's skill set. I don't want to see a Kreider, Miller, or Hayes traded to try to prop up Vigneault. If he can't get through to them, who's to say he will get through to the new guy. He's had plenty of time to try to get Kreider and others
to the next level.


How many goals would Zibanejad have, if not for Kreider in front?





Any body can go to the net and screen a goalie. Takes no talent just will. Sorta like using a Porsche to haul the honey wagon.
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concust
Posted 2017-10-11 2:43 PM (#683003 - in reply to #682993)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Rranger - 2017-10-11 12:50 PM

sureshore - 2017-10-11 9:57 AM

Mikey Red - 2017-10-10 8:45 PM

robstones - 2017-10-10 6:43 PM

Staal has been good

Skjei Shattenkirk makes sense

Smith and DeAngelo will be back.

Can't trade Holden if we show he isn't a top 6 guy.

Staal's value is rising, too.

TD needs to play RW in practice


enough of this 'converting a d-man to forward". Rarely works - DeAngelo's unique skillset is what makes him a wildcard at defense. As a forward he'd be just another smallish winger and would probably be just closer to Hartford that he is right now.

Only a handful of d-men can make that move - Burns and Bufyglien in today's game and even most in previous times were much bigger physically.

This ain't high-school or club hockey where you see that happen all the time.





I agree with trying to change him, it’s dumb. He’s a unique talent and needs some backing and direction. First thing is finding him a dependable partner who can back up his offensive forays. The Rangers have jimmied themselves into a corner with McD, Shattenkirk, Skjei and DeAngelo always looking to jump up ice. Rarely does two offensive defensemen work together. Coupled with Smith who really has only been real good against Montreal in last years playoffs followed by a thud against Ottawa. He’s a warrior love his grit but looking like the third pair guy, that he came as advertised. The d is a mess of a poor mix of personnel and a significant change in personnel is needed. Gorton has it to do.


I don't disagree with any of this, but I will say that so far, the deployment of the defenseman has been sub-optimal (to put it mildly).

I would also say that McDonagh and Skjei in my estimation are more "two way" defensemen and who they are paired with, is more flexible than say, DeAngelo.

Leetch was free to take offensive liberties because he knew he had Beukeboom backing him up. DeAngelo will never be a defensive stalwart, he may never even be a two-way guy - so he needs someone dependable to play with, so that he can play his game and not be forced into a role he can't succeed in. I say this again, but I am not a big DeAngelo fan - but if you're going to have him on the team at least learn to play to his strengths.

Skjei - Shattenkirk makes no sense to me because you've got two of your most dynamic puck carriers on the same pair. Only one of them can have the puck. In other words, you're underutilizing one (or the other) whenever this pair is on the ice at the same time. You ever see Beukeboom rushing the puck through the neutral zone? It wasn't his job, and there were better people to do it.

Staal-McDonagh has been a decent pair, Staal seems rejuvenated, which is great. However this means you're using your top defenseman on his off side, one that he's only played in the NHL something like 12 games in his NHL career. Again, misuse of assets.

Holden - Kampfer - look, these are both serviceable 7th defensemen, but when they're both in your bottom pair and you don't have injury issues, that's a problem.

Brendan Smith - had a bad game, I have no problem with him sitting. Anything more than a game to "send a message" is punitive and shortsighted, IMO.

At this point I would say the defense should be

Staal-Shattenkirk
McDonagh - Smith
Skjei -Deangelo

Staal is arguably our best defenseman right now, but is still slow and more defensive minded. Pair him with Shattenkirk who will know his role on the pair.
McDonagh - Smith should be a good pair, McDonagh is the puck carrier on that pair and you can use them anywhere on the ice. I mean, Smith > Girardi and McDonagh had to play with Girardi for 6 years so ...
Skeji -Deangelo is the shakiest of the three pairs. Still, Skjei is smart enough defensively, and also has the wheels, to cover for any of Deangelo's questionable decisions. Which I'm fine with since you want your offensive players to be offensive minded.

The key to these pairs though, is you pretty much have to play them equally, 5v5 at least. The talent is spread between the three pairs and the UTILIZATION should match that. If you need to shorten the bench and play with your top 4 guys late in the third, no one would argue that - it's a coach's JOB to adapt to game situations.

Unfortunately as the last couple of seasons have shown, AV is unable to do either one of those two key parts of his job well - utilitze what he's given, nor adapt to game situations. So this is all moot and all we can really do at this point is pray.

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concust
Posted 2017-10-11 2:45 PM (#683004 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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On a brighter note, Buchnevich has been awesome so far this season and no one's talking about it. So props to him, he's got a load of talent. Reminds me of a young Tarasenko. (Here's hoping)

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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-10-11 3:15 PM (#683009 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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Mikey no likey the BUCH
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Rangerjunkie
Posted 2017-10-11 3:26 PM (#683011 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG


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On a not so much brighter note, Zib, Miller, Zuc, Staal, and Skjei are the only players to score an even strength goal. And yes there have only been 5 goals scored total at even strength, 189:58 total time.

Edited by Rangerjunkie 2017-10-11 3:27 PM
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Mikey Red
Posted 2017-10-11 3:37 PM (#683012 - in reply to #683009)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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Rangerjunkie - 2017-10-11 3:15 PM

Mikey no likey the BUCH

lol lol I think he has the potential...I just don't see the top line role
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Steady Eddie
Posted 2017-10-11 4:23 PM (#683013 - in reply to #682629)
Subject: Re: Game 4: St. Louis Blues @ New York Rangers 10/10/17 - 7pm - MSG



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We haven't improved our roster over the past few years, but other teams have, and are now going to pass us in the standings. But all is not lost. Jesper Fast is close to returning.
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